Curse

DreamWind · Sep 25, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Salbat

Thing with that statement is ArenaNet don't know them self what 4 more heroes would do to the game because until you actually put something into effect you won't know the out come, so in that respect until it's actually tried no one is qualified to say either way.

That wasn't really my point. My point was that many people would vote to put anything in the game as long as it immediately benefits them and they wouldn't give a second thought to the consequences. I'm not saying 7 heroes would be neccessarily bad for the game, I'm just saying many people on these forums aren't qualified to judge what should be in the game. Even when something in the game shouldn't be in it, many people will defend it. Example: Soul Reaping.

zwei2stein · Sep 25, 2008, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That wasn't really my point. My point was that many people would vote to put anything in the game as long as it immediately benefits them and they wouldn't give a second thought to the consequences. I'm not saying 7 heroes would be neccessarily bad for the game, I'm just saying many people on these forums aren't qualified to judge what should be in the game. Even when something in the game shouldn't be in it, many people will defend it. Example: Soul Reaping.

Minority voting-out something too does not necessarily mean something is bad for game.

because otherwise you are arguing whether Argumentum ad populum is more or less valid than Appeal to motive

Avarre · Sep 25, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I think it should be obvious that the opinions of people who know how the game works are far more valuable than everyone elses'. Games are built on mechanics, if you don't understand them then what are you doing making suggestions.

Granted in this kind of situation it doesn't matter because this is a very 'meh, whatever' sort of change.

upier · Sep 25, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

That wasn't really my point. My point was that many people would vote to put anything in the game as long as it immediately benefits them and they wouldn't give a second thought to the consequences. I'm not saying 7 heroes would be necessarily bad for the game, I'm just saying many people on these forums aren't qualified to judge what should be in the game. Even when something in the game shouldn't be in it, many people will defend it. Example: Soul Reaping.

A.Net feels that Soul Reaping should be in GW PvE.
A.Net feels that SY! should be in GW PvE.
A.Net feels that one-shot kills should be in GW PvE.
A.Net feels that perma-SF should be in GW PvE.
...

Hanging Man · Sep 25, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I would love to have 7 heroes, mainly because I can't stand waiting for other people to join.
plus then i could have complete control over everyones build

Bryant Again · Sep 25, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem I have with this is that nobody in this thread is qualified to determine what is good or bad for the game. How do you know 4 more heroes won't be bad? Remember, there were a large percentage of people who didn't think Ursan (and a lot of other broken things) was bad for the game on these very forums.

It doesn't matter how many people wanted it, what matters is why, what it'll do, and what're the costs. With Ursan there was very, *very* little that it did for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I didnt get the point of that at all really. If you saying H/H = 7heros, No.

No I'm not, so we'll just proceed to the logical conclusion that you just dunno what you're talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

still solo farming imo, does not matter how many people are in the group, you still getting the same amount of gym sets.

lolwut? A person playing with a human party will recieve the same if not more amount of loot than a person H/Hing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

From what people have been saying on this thread 50%+ use H/H. .

lol okay

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Why dont YOU give me proof of the game not being easy to many, Ive played with many, many, guilds pugs etc and its easy

These forums, PvX wiki, OP PvE skills, consumables, lowering the difficulty of NM areas, existence and popularity of the wiki (repeat this one five billion times), etc. etc. etc.

Either way, neither of us are in much of a position to say how "easy or hard" the game is. You saying "DEH GAME ISH EASY" can be just as asinine as me saying Nightmare difficulty in the original Doom series using only a chainsaw is easy.

But given how popular the wiki is, how frequented the campfire and explorer leagues are, and the very vast gradual dumbing down of the game, I'm going to safely assume that most players are at least not terribly good at the game.

The majority of a playerbase is always going to be a little rough with their skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Just cause some 1 is asking what people think about their build does not mean the game is not easy to them, same for the Q&A threads.

Uh when they're asking "what do you think of their build" their usually going there for advice to improve it. It's quite easily logical to assume if they're asking for improvement then they're having a bit of an uneasy time.

Hehe, I noticed how you didn't touch the Explorer's forums ; P

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

No all you need is 3 necros and a space bar.

Oh.

Okay!

Well let me just empty my Necro's hero's bars and proceed to go out and win deh game 'cus that's all I need, amirite? Wait what's this I'm not winning tha game! I think I may actually need to get all of those skills, which'll be tough cus I is a Warrior! Screw this it's too much work! I'm goin back to PUGS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

With H/H or 7heros its just add-n-go only 1 person needs to know the mission "or w/e your doing" dont need team work etc. A good guild group will always be more powerful than pugs or H/H but they you have to have 8 skilled players to run a good guild group or your basically running a pug

When it's you and a guild group, you only have to worry about how you yourself play. When it's you with heroes, you have to worry about how all of them play. In a guild group you only have to worry about your bar. With you and 7 heroes you have to worry about everyone's bars.

This could pretty much keep going on. Either way, it's not so accessible.

well they are the devs, so they can have their own servers and test stuff like this "i hope they do anyway" maybe they do think it made the game to easy and didnt want to add 7heros or tell people why cause they knew people would not accept it well.[/QUOTE]

JDRyder · Sep 25, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

stuff

why dont you give me some reasons 7 heros are good, other than just saying im wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When it's you and a guild group, you only have to worry about how you yourself play. When it's you with heroes, you have to worry about how all of them play. In a guild group you only have to worry about your bar. With you and 7 heroes you have to worry about everyone's bars.

so your saying its harder to play with H/H than it is with a guild? You may micro every thing but you 1 of few, everyone else uses 0 micro builds and just T space on every thing, you dont NEED to flag, and do any thing more than copy a build off pvx or guild chat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

This could pretty much keep going on. Either way, it's not so accessible.

yes builds are, any 1 thats in a guild knows atleast 1 person at some point has asked for a hero build, and some 1 has handed them subway or discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

That's, for instance, me. I completed all missions except Eternal Grove with bonus/masters and a buttload of quests, with just henches. Which could not be flagged.

Heroes made my gaming life a lot easier, BUT here's a thought: I've never been able to use team builds.

Not quite true. As having more heroes allows making team builds I am, in a very real sense, playing my heroes bar, and do get a new gaming experience even in the same old areas.
I mean, I've pretty much completed all there is to do on all three continents without ever getting to try a single actual team build. And this in a game which is all about team builds.

you can already make team builds with other players if thats all you really want to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Not to me. I don't play computer games to socialize and mingle, I play for relaxation and divertion. When I play I don't like to have to take or give orders, or have to be understanding about other peoples need to eat dinner during missions, but I do want to be able to take a dinner break myself when I feel like it. I'm not anti-social, I'm just not social in games.
Heroes and henches were made for people like me, and it's people like me who use them.

I know its been said and a few times now but i have to say it again, if you want to play by yourself, cool, but your playing a online game where things like this effect more than yourself. If you really want to just play by yourself, play a SP game. There are many really good SP games out there, that you can put down if you need to go to dinner, which seems to kill guild wars for so many people.

If you soloed the game with henchmen why are 7heros needed. Making builds is not a good reason to add more heros, it will make the game easier for you to complete.

upier · Sep 25, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

If you soloed the game with henchmen why are 7heros needed. Making builds is not a good reason to add more heros, it will make the game easier for you to complete.

Abso-freaking-lutely!
Getting better at this game should be rewarded with more head-RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs!

That's like removing Frenzy and Diversion (for example) out of high-end PvP!
Those guys are good enough to use Flail and Arcane Languor!

eximiis · Sep 25, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

If you soloed the game with henchmen why are 7heros needed. Making builds is not a good reason to add more heros, it will make the game easier for you to complete.

If we already have finish the game (and it's easy we all know) what else to do ??

-Farm (get's boring)
-Help friends (not all friends are on at the same time i an)
-Pvp ? not for me. Discrimination world ftl.
-High end stuff (doa, fow, uw, etc..) Does my Dervish or my Ritualist or my Mesmer will be in demand ?? mmmmmh.

-7 heroes and try out some builds, do elite area with my heroes, Bring 6 heroes to help out a friend that only has prophecies ?

Why not ???

This thread have been a debate if 7 heroes are good or bad. All it can do is add fun to the ppl that wants them.

Ppl that don't want them can still continue the way they do.

"It will kill pug is not an argument"

Numa Pompilius · Sep 25, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

you can already make team builds with other players if thats all you really want to do.

But I don't want to play with other players.

Quote:

I know its been said and a few times now but i have to say it again, if you want to play by yourself, cool, but your playing a online game where things like this effect more than yourself. If you really want to just play by yourself, play a SP game.

And as I've repeatedly pointed out, your argument is...
1) Based on a fallacy: "online" is not equal to "multiplayer".
2) Irrelevant: Guild Wars is by ArenaNet design intentionally possible to play from start to finish as a pretty good single-player RPG.

Quote:

There are many really good SP games out there

Actually, there isn't. The last big-ticket cRPG I played was Oblivion, and frankly it stinks compared to GW. The shortage of even halfway decent cRPGs is why I started playing GW in the first place.

Quote:

If you soloed the game with henchmen why are 7heros needed.

They're not. They're needed for me to make team builds. Which would be fun as that's what the game is about.

Larcen · Sep 25, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I haven't went back and read this entire thread, and I'm certain others have said the same thing, I just want to put my $.02 in.

Scenario: Its a Thursday night, I'm bored, college has worn my brain thin and I need some relaxing gaming time. So, I figure hey! I'll jump in and do some Underworld play. I get in, and there are only farmers, and elitist groups wanting speed clears, etc. So, I put in my three best heroes and give it a go. If its Normal mode, it plays like HM. Slow, lots of pressure and probably deaths. If its hard mode, well, I don't get very far before I have to get to bed.

Seven heroes would fix this problem, decent synergy builds and I can enjoy a few hours of fun doing hard areas, hard mode elite areas, etc. Sure this would discourage PUG play, but has anyone really paid a lot of attention anymore? Most people who PUG are in the same guild, or a tight clique anyway. Do it or don't, it isn't going to change much. Those who play with others still will, those who can't get into or find groups still won't.

My $.02

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 25, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'm just saying many people on these forums aren't qualified to judge what should be in the game.

Precisely! And we see many of them, such as JDRyder, in this very thread, complaining about the idea of 7 heroes (which would not affect other players at all) for the sole reason of trying to reduce the fun that other players have. It seems immature and unnecessarily hateful to me, but there it is - people not qualified to judge what should be in the game are rejecting the idea of 7-hero parties for no valid reason.

(Yes, there have been many reasons not to have 7 heroes, none of them valid.)

Ghost Dog · Sep 25, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Every day I realize more and more how half assed this game really is, give me my 7 hero option please, after all the work I did on the hall of monuments and all the grinding and putting up with people, I don't think I have it in me for gw2 unless I see something like this implemented.

Stop trying to get me to make pugs ANET I refuse to do it anymore.

I think the unusable imp is the last straw for me, This is just a mess.

Bryant Again · Sep 26, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

why dont you give me some reasons 7 heros are good, other than just saying im wrong?

Sure.

-Allows for a much richer, deeper, and ultimately more customizable gaming experience for those who prefer to play with heroes.
-Removes the need to rely on henchmen which, as you are against, provide an unfair and unlogical level of gaming difficulty.
-Opens up to thousands of more build options.
-Provides a much easier and fulfilling game for those who are knowledgeable with the current game of Guild Wars while not helping those who are not.
-Provides all of these things while doing little to no harm to PUGs.

It's less a matter of "why?" and more a matter of "why not?".

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

so your saying its harder to play with H/H than it is with a guild?

Yeup.
-You don't have to set up 3 additional builds.
-You don't have to set up 3 additional characters.
-You don't have to be mindful of what your additional 3 characters are doing.
-You need only worry about what you yourself are doing.

This isn't saying that H/H is hard. It's not saying that H/H is easy. It's saying that playing in a group with guildees is easer than playing with yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

yes builds are

Hay sup read over every single point I've made about unlock packs, the online store, and the amount of time it takes to unlock all those skills, m'kay? Easy for you =/= easy for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

any 1 thats in a guild knows atleast 1 person at some point has asked for a hero build, and some 1 has handed them subway or discord.

Because every guild is totally just like yours, amirite?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Abso-freaking-lutely!
Getting better at this game should be rewarded with more head-RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs!

That's like removing Frenzy and Diversion (for example) out of high-end PvP!
Those guys are good enough to use Flail and Arcane Languor!

Warning: Upier logic has entered the thread. Be mindful of epic win and epic arguments, and of the thread exploding.

pumpkin pie · Sep 26, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Why dont YOU give me proof of the game not being easy to many, Ive played with many, many, guilds pugs etc and its easy

warrior in AB using Meteor Shower + Beds of Coals ...

try to beds of coals me, so i let him, then i run out of the bed of coal, he follow, severed my artery, he gets kill while casting meteor shower ... try look into the thread funniest build you've seen. and you know how many noobs are still out there "struggling" or having fun, who knows.

Avarre · Sep 26, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Players who don't consider the game to be easy usually find it that way because they're doing something horribly wrong. Once you get past the major stumbling block of finding out which of the thousand-plus skills are actually useful, that tends to clear up. You don't really need to be 'skilled' so long as you're set up well, which is what sites like the Wiki help with.

Saying GW is hard because bad players have trouble is like saying American High School is hard because of the drop-out rates. It's just not solid evidence.

vandevere · Sep 26, 2008, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Sure.

-Allows for a much richer, deeper, and ultimately more customizable gaming experience for those who prefer to play with heroes.
-Removes the need to rely on henchmen which, as you are against, provide an unfair and unlogical level of gaming difficulty.
-Opens up to thousands of more build options.
-Provides a much easier and fulfilling game for those who are knowledgeable with the current game of Guild Wars while not helping those who are not.
-Provides all of these things while doing little to no harm to PUGs.

It's less a matter of "why?" and more a matter of "why not?".

Quote:

-You don't have to set up 3 additional builds.
-You don't have to set up 3 additional characters.
-You don't have to be mindful of what your additional 3 characters are doing.
-You need only worry about what you yourself are doing.

This isn't saying that H/H is hard. It's not saying that H/H is easy. It's saying that playing in a group with guildees is easer than playing with yourself.

This is what I love-absolutely love-about Heroes. Every time I set out, before leaving town or outpost, I pick the heroes I take with me, usually Dunkaro and Olias. the third is entirely contingent upon what I'm going to be facing.

Today, for example, I walked from Divinity Coast, to ToA. Since there were lots of Undead in the area, I took Ogden too, set up as a Smiter. The other two positions were taken by Henchies; Stefan, and Dunham. I would've been happier, though, if I could've replaced Stefan with Koss, and maybe added an extra Hero, either Acolyte Sousuke, or General Morgahn...

Now, I don't consider myself a really good player. I'm usually slow when it comes to being caught flat-footed. But I put a lot of time and consideration into my Heroes' Skills, Armor, Weapons, and Attributes, and they didn't let me down. I made it to ToA without even dying once.

More to the point, I had great amounts of fun picking out the Heroes to use on this particular run, and also had fun doing a little micro-ing when necessary.

I also PUG, and play with Guildies, and I don't really have any complaint with either option. But, as other players have said, there are going to be times when that just isn't an option, for whatever reason. Maybe no one's around at the only time you have free to play. and, there are also times when I really don't want to socialize. I just want to take my frustrations out on hapless Monsters.

Either way, 7 heroes would be great!

Vandevere

JDRyder · Sep 26, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

If we already have finish the game (and it's easy we all know) what else to do ??

titles, gearing out your toons with fow armor and tormented weps, new char or new game

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

-High end stuff (doa, fow, uw, etc..) Does my Dervish or my Ritualist or my Mesmer will be in demand ?? mmmmmh.

umm isn't Copway not like the most used build for DoA now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eximiis

"It will kill pug is not an argument"

Its more than that and the only reason im hearing for adding 7heros is "to make builds"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

But I don't want to play with other players.

so play a SP game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

And as I've repeatedly pointed out, your argument is...
1) Based on a fallacy: "online" is not equal to "multiplayer".
2) Irrelevant: Guild Wars is by ArenaNet design intentionally possible to play from start to finish as a pretty good single-player RPG.

So do you play CSS or CoD4 online to not play with other players? Guild was IS a multiplayer game, that you can solo in but its still a multiplayer game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Actually, there isn't. The last big-ticket cRPG I played was Oblivion, and frankly it stinks compared to GW. The shortage of even halfway decent cRPGs is why I started playing GW in the first place.

thats only 1 game, have you played any of Biowears? KoToR 1-2 "and 3 soon i think" Mass effect "and will have a 2nd soon" all good SP games that you can get 200-1000hrs out of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

They're not. They're needed for me to make team builds. Which would be fun as that's what the game is about.

Not a reason to add 7heros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-Allows for a much richer, deeper, and ultimately more customizable gaming experience for those who prefer to play with heroes.

which will get old fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-Removes the need to rely on henchmen which, as you are against, provide an unfair and unlogical level of gaming difficulty.

No, I said if they are so shitty and you hate playing with them so much, YOU remove them. The need to rely on henchmen keeps it some what balanced, cause you can only make 3 builds that heros are OP with other that 7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-Opens up to thousands of more build options.

Not really

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-Provides a much easier and fulfilling game for those who are knowledgeable with the current game of Guild Wars while not helping those who are not.

not for long you'll get bored with it before you know it, and how is not helping people who do not know about GW a good thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-Provides all of these things while doing little to no harm to PUGs.

Yes it will, there will be OP team builds out the 1st few days for 7heros, and as always people will use them cause its the easier way, does not matter how good they are really cause the heros are playing for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

This isn't saying that H/H is hard. It's not saying that H/H is easy. It's saying that playing in a group with guildees is easer than playing with yourself.

How?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Hay sup read over every single point I've made about unlock packs, the online store, and the amount of time it takes to unlock all those skills, m'kay? Easy for you =/= easy for everyone.

what points? you said that people dont like to put their numbers on the internet, but millions of people still do it every day

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because every guild is totally just like yours, amirite?

you dont need a guild like TAM to know hero builds from pvx, any 1 can know them if you were to go up to a random player and asked for a hero team build 50%+ of the time they are going to give you subway or discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

warrior in AB using Meteor Shower + Beds of Coals ...

try to beds of coals me, so i let him, then i run out of the bed of coal, he follow, severed my artery, he gets kill while casting meteor shower ... try look into the thread funniest build you've seen. and you know how many noobs are still out there "struggling" or having fun, who knows.

Its AB who cares? Even Tam has been known to at times be like

Loki: Hai guild wanna AB?
Me: sure what do we need
Tyla: im so running a monk with Bulls and crushing
Loki: if your running that im running crip storm for lulz
Trubs: GUMBALLS!
Mike: LoL AB, Look at the new hammer I just got
Me: ummm, f*** it im running ranger i guess.
Sigh: hai guys you still need 1 for AB?
Trubs: GUMBALLS!
every1: sure what you coming as?
Sigh: umm if lokis running crip storm im running HH warrior, for the lulz
Trubs: GUMBALLS!
evly: why are you 2 in the guild? noobs
Josh: sup?
Mike: hai guys bogroots?
Every1: no we are ABing /shoo "bet you didnt see that coming lawlz"
Mike: o the fagotree.
Loki: lawlz im a crip storm warrior
Tyla: i missed my bullz D:
Sigh lololol they cant kill me "he really has ran HH war and killed 5 people that were trying to kill him"
Me: lulz D-shot that guys rof.

pumpkin pie · Sep 26, 2008, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Basically you just want what you want JDRyder? Regardless what other players wants.

for instant, i've read some of the posts where you says hench and heros are suicidal, I take that to mean they are useless, which, would make it hard in the game, wouldn't it? to be able to control a bunch of suicidal AI pixels characters, basically like playing 4x simultaneously if you micro manage your heros. if there are 7 heros i suppose i will be playing 7x simultaneously, micro-managing them, yes i do do that. micro manage my heros. how is that easy?

However, all this while, you've been saying that giving the players 7 heros are gonna make the game too easy and why should we be given that, where infact, you yourself say h/h are suicidal.

if you base your argument on the above, then why should you get to pug? If like you yourself said, in later post, that you pug, with guildie etc and its easy. if its easy, they why should you have that given to you?

correct me if i am wrong when I say you you said:
1) its hard to h/h, because they are suicidal
2) pug are challenging
3) h/h makes game easy
4) pugs are easy

so which one is it?

you say: "Its AB who cares?"

the answers is: Lots of people! (Or you won't see the lines pushing back and forth between the luxon/kurziks border everyday.)

Besides, "who cares" isn't the point, its telling you there are lots of players still don't find the game easy. You ask for example and there i gave you. Do you really think a warrior who try to cast meteor shower is finding the game easy?

PS: that conversation you included just show us the general "PUG" population that you so want to force player to play with. Nothing more.

Inner Salbat · Sep 26, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

Either way, 7 heroes would be great!

Well there are ways of getting even if they don't manipulate the own code to do it, just requires a little effort from (maybe) me, trouble is if the masses start using it then it could have an effect on the servers, as a command would be constantly sent every say half millisecond or so to follow X player number, might have to put a few JMP calls into the binary code to make it do certain things too, but then I'm not quite sure I want to risk my accounts over this, maybe if I had a couple spare and another IP account or I masqueraded with this one maybe but it'd be a very risky proposition, I'm pretty darn sure that ANet don't want me hacking into there client software.

You'd need to hack because of the 4th player you need to obtain data to make it act like a hero despite it being human, like current health/energy which moves about memory that is a given there not that dumb but modifying your energy client side won't have any effect because your real data is stored server side, so maybe they allocated the structure statically, found that out with Cheat Engine /rank 100 FTW lol.